Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:29 pm Post subject: When Will AI be implemented???
Just Downloaded the program and think its pretty good for organizing cards but not good enough to pay 20 dollars for.....
The program does not seem to have a way to show what creature blocked what creature and lands do not add mana when tapped ect...ect....ect....
Still reminds me of that old magic suitcase program I played with but with better graphic interface AD's included!!!
I noticed that AI support will be possible someday, when that day gets here I would be very interested in Paying for the program... even 40.00 if the AI is good enough.. I still like to play the old Micropose game and think they did a great job considering the computers they had to work with back then...
Is it really going to be possible to add AI play for ALL the cards??? It seems like a big task!!!! Magic has been out for a long time and I am supprised nobody has attemted to make a AI magic program since Micro Pose... Instead we get these stupid arcade like games with no card action....
even so, if things were automatic or the program asked you what choice you want when you tap a creature with an ability and resolved those choices for you then it would be worth the money...
Its to bad WOC has to be so Greedy and ruined Magic with there crazy online play... once again its the folks with the money that win and not anything to do with making a good deck. I am not paying for anything Virtual!!!!!!!!!!
Keep working on this, I would Love to see the features that are upcomming!!! _________________ omnix32
"The program does not seem to have a way to show what creature blocked what creature"
Um yeah you can. You see the phase buttons in the middle of the screen. Well one is for "Assign Blockers Phase" or something. Anyways hold down shift, right click and drag, from blocking creature to attacking creature.
"lands do not add mana when tapped"
Minor detail.. I can do my own math when it comes to mana. Is this really such a big issue?
Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 696 Location: In my room, in front of the PC ;)
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:38 pm Post subject:
OK, I'll make a deal with you... when REAL cards get AI and automatic rules, ill make it for you personally and u can have it free... _________________ Have you ever noticed how some flavor text has no relevance whatsoever to the card it's on?
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:23 am Post subject: Great!!!!!!
Thanx for the Block Tip!!!!!
As for the AI, I would really like to see someone attempt this... I have not the skill or knowledge to accomplish such a feat, but would pay for a program that does this.
Keeping Track of mana is not that hard as suggested, but for a program that you pay for it would be a nice extra. Most comerical games have there little bells and whistles that are not really needed but add to the experience of playing..
I am not putting down Magic Workstation, I guess I am really More Mad at WOC considering the amount of money I spent on REAL cards and now they want me to Buy Fake Cards to play online.. Thats why I have Stoped Playing Magic since Visions.
Now I stumble on Magic Workstaion and see great potiental in Whats already made and what is promised to be added in the future.. I can see supporting the project with capital if it really will produce in the future a Game that you can play against the computer with all the cards. Just alot of program developers promise things and never deliver them. This is not WOC,EA,Activision or any other large company that is going to be around for awhile... But then again DOOM was not made by a large company either........
thanx for the responses.... _________________ omnix32
"As for the AI, I would really like to see someone attempt this... I have not the skill or knowledge to accomplish such a feat"
To give you some knowledge.. there are like 10k-11k cards that would have to be programmed. Doesn't take much 'knowledge' to know that is a lot of programming.
Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Europe / Sweden
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:37 am Post subject:
POTF wrote:
"As for the AI, I would really like to see someone attempt this... I have not the skill or knowledge to accomplish such a feat"
To give you some knowledge.. there are like 10k-11k cards that would have to be programmed. Doesn't take much 'knowledge' to know that is a lot of programming.
...for the sake of god, give this guy a break! He stated what he missed in the program in his initial message and I understand that you guys feel like someone is giving ur favourite program kinda the "thumbs down" when he's really just telling us what he would like to see. And to be frank, he's be really nice and friendly about it to while you are "almost" flaming him...
About the ai thing, HELLO? It's on the "Close future" todo-list! He even asked this in his initial post: "Is it really going to be possible to add AI play for ALL the cards??? It seems like a big task!!!!".
I'm not sure what they mean by "ai for decktesting" or even what they mean by "close future", but its certainly fuzzy enough to be interpreted as "gampley against computer ai". And thats the way most people will interpret it!
He haven't even once stated that he thought it would be a simple task to implement it, but its something he would like to see. And I ask you, whats wrong with that???
To omnix32: I hope I'm not offending you but I've been reading the answers and become more and more annoyed at the response you've been recieving.
Well anyway, thats all the whine I have for today, jus thought i'd give you my point of view.
Cheers everyone,
time to go to sleep =)
//TMc _________________ 'The first ten million years were the worst, said Marvin, and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' - Marvin, one happy fella =)
Last edited by TMc on Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:07 am; edited 2 times in total
Not that I don't realize he is being friendly. Point is AI is a big project, even though it is on the close to future list it will take quite a while. I don't want him sitting there thinkining tomorrow there will be AI in the program. I mean come on.. logic points to the fact that it will be a long process, hard or not, there are so many cards and so many rules that would have to be programmed in. Auto Rules checking will take a long enough, then to make an AI to decide what to do, and which card is the best etc.. etc.. I don't see that coming very soon, maybe sometime next year. It just seems he is asking for a single player game, which I don't see happening soon.
If I called him names I guess you could say I was flaming, I was just making a point. AI, and Auto rules checking are 2 seperate things. If he wants something to count mana that can be done probably very easily, to make AI that plays a game of Magic, that is another story.
Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Europe / Sweden
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:56 am Post subject:
I know its a big task, and to me he seem to know to, he even explicitly asked about it in his initial post wishing for it but thinking it might be to big.
I know it will take a lot of time and hard work to implement ai into mws. But I really feel that if thats also how the developers feel it shouldnt be on the "close future"-list, it should be on a "future"-list. Thats how i feel at least.
All answers i have been reading have (once again in my eyes) been very negative. They havent been downright mean, but kinda like talking to someone who doesnt know better...
Is it really to much to ask for the mana thing? We both that we can live without it, but wouldnt it be a nice feature? Why give him the thumbs down on it?
All the answers have this "your giving my favourite program the thumbs down, i have to be mean back". Not to say that people's been really mean, but I wouldnt call it nice and friendly. _________________ 'The first ten million years were the worst, said Marvin, and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' - Marvin, one happy fella =)
Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Europe / Sweden
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:58 am Post subject:
just one small thing,
reread what you had written and saw that you wrote is that "close to future list" while thats not the case, what they call it on the homepage is " In the close future". I think your naming probably is more correct, but its still not the one they are using. And the two have completely different meanings...
//TMc _________________ 'The first ten million years were the worst, said Marvin, and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' - Marvin, one happy fella =)
Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Europe / Sweden
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:00 am Post subject:
Quote:
If I called him names I guess you could say I was flaming, I was just making a point. AI, and Auto rules checking are 2 seperate things. If he wants something to count mana that can be done probably very easily, to make AI that plays a game of Magic, that is another story.
Its not about calling people names, its about saying things in a nice way, or not doing it.
Read the responses he have recived for yourself, we might interpret things differently, but im not getting that nice feel (not downright mean, really not, but not nice either, and not neutral...)
Edit: Well as I said in my initial post: Goodnight everyone =)
//TMc _________________ 'The first ten million years were the worst, said Marvin, and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' - Marvin, one happy fella =)
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:28 am Post subject: Super!!!!!
Thanx TMc for the response!!!!!! and everyone for the input....
I hope I did not offend anyone, All I am saying is that I have played Magic the Gathering since it first came out. I have spent hundrededs of dollars on cards and trying to keep up with the new cards until Visions....
This all cost a termendous amout of time and resources as I like most of you Love(ed) the game.. Then comes along Micropose and makes it possible to play the AI... I could not have been happier because I could now play without talking someone into coming over and playing or me leaving the house. ANYWAY................
Like I said, WOC has ruined the game for me. I was always hoping for better computer simulations of MTG, but they offered a product with no computer AI and worse you now have to Buy virtual cards and have no way of using the thousands of cards you have already spent hard money on. So I found a program called magic suitcase or something that went with it... It was rough and a little disappointing but at least you could play the game with someone online... It got old and I stop for a year.
Now, I stumbled on this program Magic Workstation... Its basic but it allows you to have the Original art work and errata on the magic cards and covers all the editions with nice card sorting features, Also I noticed that planed in the future is the possibility of playing the AI and testing decks this way... SO, if I am to support a program I was just interested in how serious of an attempt is going to be given to the development of AI and mundane task such as tapping mana be implemented into Magic Workstation. I paid around 30 US dollars for the original Micropose version that had AI and deck Construction.....
OH, and AI technology has come a long way... It would be better to make an AI engine that understands card values instead of seperate routines for each card for all the possible combinations for just one card to interact with.
its about saying things in a nice way, or not doing it.
Read the responses he have recived for yourself, we might interpret things differently, but im not getting that nice feel (not downright mean, really not, but not nice either, and not neutral...)
//TMc
Well... I answered his questions initially, he thanked me for that.
I responded to:
"As for the AI, I would really like to see someone attempt this... I have not the skill or knowledge to accomplish such a feat, but would pay for a program that does this. "
with my choice of words because how that is phrased, he is saying he won't pay unless it has AI basically. As if someone needs to make it for him before he will pay to support the program. Seemed more like a demand to me than a question.
Also when did pointing fingers help the situation?
"you are "almost" flaming him..."
Am I the only one that replied to him?
He thanked me for my help with the blocking question, why not leave it?
"we might interpret things differently, but im not getting that nice feel (not downright mean, really not, but not nice either, and not neutral...) "
This is my response to him, not you. I wasn't mean, I was direct, to the point, and showing why AI isn't in it already, and why it is a big thing to ask for. If you don't like how I phrased something feel free to say it in a nicer way, making a scene about it helps no one does it?
Joined: 07 Dec 2002 Posts: 696 Location: In my room, in front of the PC ;)
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject:
First of all: I'm sorry to TMc if I looked like i was treating onnix like a little kid who doesnt know better... there are other posts that have already covered this topic...
If you want AI, download MAGMA (MWSdevs: dont delete my post, im trying to help this guy, not advertise)
Yes, to add mana is bad... it is a step down a slipery slide I'd personally rather avoid... if you want auto rules, I suggest MODO (again, I'm not advertising )
i hate to tell you, but your not getting either of these for quite a while... I advise you to drop the subject for at least 1/2 a year, by which time v1.0 will be out and half the people on these forums will leave and stop whinging...
I am eternally sorry if I'm not saying things in what you consider a nice way... tolerate it... _________________ Have you ever noticed how some flavor text has no relevance whatsoever to the card it's on?
Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Europe / Sweden
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:08 pm Post subject:
To POTF: I wasn't soley talking about you and your responses, I was talking about everyones. I'm sorry if that wasnt clear in my replys.
To Brainwad: I think you were generally nicer in your last post but I'll try to tolerate you anyway
I'll drop the subject now anyways, I hope thats okay with you. I've said what I think and then you can do how you please.
//TMc _________________ 'The first ten million years were the worst, said Marvin, and the second ten million, they were the worst too. The third ten million I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into a bit of a decline.' - Marvin, one happy fella =)
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