Magic Workstation
All MTG Players Needs
 
 FAQ   SearchSearch   Memberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

MagicWorkstation Shuffling
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
       Magic Workstation Forum Index -> General questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Calbrenar
User


Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:54 am    Post subject: MagicWorkstation Shuffling

Ok I love this program i registered it and I use it a ton.

One thing that HAS to be fixed is the shuffling in the game. It is fucking TERRIBLE.

I am constantly getting duplicates of cards that I only have 4 in together in my hand even after I shuffle literally 50 times before a game. Cards are always bunched together with similar titles right in a row.

There should also be an option to mana shuffle the deck (2 spells 1 land) and then shuffle it again normally after to more evenly distribute mana.

As it is out of every game we play that is fine the next 4 there is no mana drawn for either one of us or both of us.

Trust me when I say this is not common bad luck but rather that the shuffle is extremely unreliable no matter how many times you shuffle
Back to top
Send private message
POTF
Registered User



Joined: 25 Nov 2003
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:35 pm    Post subject:

I believe it is done right. It is done completely random. So shuffling once is like shuffling it hundred times.

If not it should be.
Back to top
Send private message
brainwad
MWS Specialist



Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 677
Location: In my room, in front of the PC ;)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:18 pm    Post subject:

There should be a real life shuffling option...

MWS Shuffle moves each of the 60 cards 60 times...
MODO shuffle moves each of the 60 cards 1 time...
Humans move around 20-40 cards 3-7 times...

See: MWS is better than we are, but we are better than MODO...
_________________
Have you ever noticed how some flavor text has no relevance whatsoever to the card it's on?
Back to top
Send private message Send e-mail
Detonator
MWS Developer



Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 709
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:27 pm    Post subject:

Hi, Calbrenar
Before 0.92 version I use shuffle algorithm from mathematical books - this simple algoritm for enought random deck shuffling (MODO use same algorithm). But i have complaints to shuffle. After 0.92 I make the same algorithm, but repeat it 60 times. This is true random shuffle. Or you want random when you have alternate cards in shuffled deck: (2 spell / 1 land)... ?
Back to top
Send private message Send e-mail
DaDemon
MWS Associate



Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 359
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:16 pm    Post subject:

As I tell everyone on O-Gaming when they complain about the shuffler: STOP SHUFFLING 50 TIMES.

There's no reason to shuffle this many times. Try shuffling 2-4 times at max, and youll see that you get the same or better results.
_________________
http://www.mwsdata.com
http://www.o-gaming.com
DaDemon@o-gaming.com
Back to top
Send private message
El Bastardo
Skilled User


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 54
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: MagicWorkstation Shuffling

Calbrenar wrote:

There should also be an option to mana shuffle the deck (2 spells 1 land) and then shuffle it again normally after to more evenly distribute mana.


YES YEEEEEESSSSSSSS I cry out for this for so long.
This method is called "Land Stacking": You separate Lands and cards, shuffle both separatly and put the lands back EVENLY so you will not know which cards you will draw but the raito is good (so no 10 lands after another etc.).

The program MTGPlay hat a very good solution you can full customize how to shuffle (land stack, randomize, full shuffle etc.) so it is possible!!
_________________
If you can read this, you can read!!
Back to top
Send private message
Calbrenar
User


Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:58 pm    Post subject:

Well regardless of whether I shuffle once or multiple times I consistently get a card that is only in there 4 times all in a row which should be statistically impossible if the shuffler works.

In addition no mana draws are ridiculously common when you consider that with a true random shuffle you should get land 1 out of every 3 cards.

Obviously this isn't the case
Back to top
Send private message
urza220
Registered User



Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 47
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: MagicWorkstation Shuffling

El Bastardo wrote:
Calbrenar wrote:

There should also be an option to mana shuffle the deck (2 spells 1 land) and then shuffle it again normally after to more evenly distribute mana.


YES YEEEEEESSSSSSSS I cry out for this for so long.
This method is called "Land Stacking": You separate Lands and cards, shuffle both separatly and put the lands back EVENLY so you will not know which cards you will draw but the raito is good (so no 10 lands after another etc.).

The program MTGPlay hat a very good solution you can full customize how to shuffle (land stack, randomize, full shuffle etc.) so it is possible!!


Well, "land stacking" is not illegal, and is considered cheating. Just because you don't know which cards are coming up, you still know when you have a land or nonland coming up, and can make decisions based on that knowledge. I don't know anyone who actually allows this, not even in casual play. In fact, in a sanctioned tournament, if you separate lands and nonlands, then do this "land stacking," and then after that shuffle some more, it is still considered illegal.
Randomness is a part of Magic, like it or lump it. Land stacking is illegal. If it weren't you they wouldn't print mana fixers like krosan tusker or the land cyclers. Plus, if the shuffle is actually fully random, it doesn't matter if what order the cards are in in the first place.
Back to top
Send private message
El Bastardo
Skilled User


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 54
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: MagicWorkstation Shuffling

urza220 wrote:
Just because you don't know which cards are coming up, you still know when you have a land or nonland coming up, and can make decisions based on that knowledge.


-__- nobody can make it so precize that you really know when you will draw what it's just to have some kind of physically card balance in my deck.

How we (my friends and I) draw in real life: separate lands and cards. Shuffle them separated. take the one pile in the one hand and the other in the other and put NOT EXACTLY two cards one land two cards one land...until all are together. THEN we CUT THE DECKS multible times and LIGHT SHUFFLE (take 4 parts of that one pile and shuffle).


So in the end you have a randomized deck NOT 100% land stacked sure there are passages in the deck with two lands after another and so on BUT:

You will NEVER EVER get hands like in MWS like 6 lands in a row or 4 copys of the same card it's simple physically intelligent drawn!!
_________________
If you can read this, you can read!!
Back to top
Send private message
ACE of SPADEs
Registered User



Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 204
Location: New York, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:52 pm    Post subject: Hmm...

There must be a better shuffling method for MWSPlay and I'm sure they are working on it...but to have a shuffler that will "STACK" your deck is just dumb IMO.

I play in real life more than I do online because of my weird time limitations because of work, but when I do play in FNMs or somewhere, I tend to see the younger players "stacking" their decks (AKA Land Stacking) and all I do is just shuffle their decks vigorously. 9 out of 10 times, they will Mulligan at least 1 time. By Land Stacking or Stacking in general, you are setting up your deck to come out in a certain way and that is not "Random"...but I must agree that the online shuffler is quite odd compared to in real life situations. Rolling Eyes

So, if the Devs are allowing for such shuffling (possible stacking), then it would be wise to place in an option where the opponent can then shuffle the opponent's deck...

I know that what I propose may slow the game down (online playing is indeed slower than in real life), but if after the player shuffles his deck for whatever reason, be in Land Cycling, Sac Land or whatever, the MWSPlay should ask the opponent something like: "Would you like to shuffle your opponent's deck?" and the player would simply click YES or NO and then continue on...we have that REAL option in real life playing...if the online shuffling MAY conceal ways of cheating, then it will just raise hell later on when players accuse their opponents of cheating...when simply an option like this will clearly negate that idea.
_________________
-ACE of SPADEs #Beammeup-alien

Click HERE to Join CardShark for FREE!!!
Back to top
Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Detonator
MWS Developer



Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 709
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:02 am    Post subject:

If you have 20 lands in 60 card deck:
a) 1/20 chance to 6 lands in a row
b) 1/340 chance to 4 copies of the same card in a row
c) 1/5000 chance to 7 lands in start hand, but 1/21 chance to no lands in start hand
If you lucky, you seize this only chance
Back to top
Send private message Send e-mail
urza220
Registered User



Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 47
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:27 am    Post subject:

No matter how you try to justify it, any sort of land stacking isn't legal and takes away from an actually randomized deck. If you want to shuffle legally and get a good balance, you can try pile shuffling, which is legal. That is where you take your deck (already shuffled a bit in case you just scooped everything together after a game) and you start dealing out 4 facedown piles, alternating which pile you place the next card on, so that it separates all your clumps. This is usually done more than once, and followed by some more shuffling, I have found it to be very effective for producing an actually randomized deck. And more importantly, it's actually legal.
Back to top
Send private message
Calbrenar
User


Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:17 am    Post subject:

My suggestion didn't say anything about stacking the deck . I said to mana shuffle it and then do a random shuffle. Just to spread the land out first.
Back to top
Send private message
urza220
Registered User



Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 47
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:23 am    Post subject:

It doesn't matter if you spread out the lands first if the shuffling is totally random. The starting order will not mean anything once a random shuffle is done. That is unless the shuffling algorithm really isn't that random, but I don't know about that.
Back to top
Send private message
ACE of SPADEs
Registered User



Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 204
Location: New York, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:34 am    Post subject: Hmm...

The shuffling algorithm may not be all that random...but we'll soon see what the Devs will come up with.
_________________
-ACE of SPADEs #Beammeup-alien

Click HERE to Join CardShark for FREE!!!
Back to top
Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
       Magic Workstation Forum Index -> General questions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.6 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group